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AAIAC Minutes from 17 September 2003
| 1. Attendees
AAIAC Members:
Martin Hudson (MH) – In the Chair
Jon Cox (JC)
Iain Peter (IP)
Stephen Saddler (SS)
Rob Henderson (RH)
Brian Davies (BD)
Simon Waring (SW)
Ron Rutland (RR)
Mike Penny (MP)
AAIAC Observers
Jon Beynon (JB)
Marcus Bailie (MB) (from 2pm)
Bill Gillan (BG) – HSE (from 2pm)
Robert Vaughan (RV) – HSE (from 2pm) Guests (from 2pm) John Cousins SkillsActive: Ben Gittus CCPR:
Andrew Hanson (AH) (Education & Training Officer)
Charlotte Edward (CE) (Policy Officer Water Recreation and Outdoor Pursuits) 2. Apologies for Absence
Stephen Studd, Drew Michie, Ian Lamb, Sandra Skinner, John Bevan, Fred Nelson, Chris Coleman and Roger Smith 3. Chairman’s remarks
3.1 Martin Hudson welcomed everyone to the meeting and in particular Jon Beynon from the National Assembly for Wales. 4. Notes of previous meeting – 23 June 2003
4.1 The amended version of the notes from the previous meeting on the 23 June 2003 were circulated and the committee agreed that these were an accurate record of the meeting’s content and intent. 5. Remit / status of Committee
5.1 The Committee discussed the importance of the UK remit. The attendance and support of Jon Beynon as the representative for The National Assembly for Wales, was welcomed by the Committee. JB explained that the new Minister for Sport had an interest in adventure activities and supported the group on the understanding that it had a UK remit and Scotland were involved. JB’s role would be to report back to the Minister from these meetings. The membership discussed the importance of the Scottish Executive’s involvement at these meetings. It was agreed that one way to encourage this was to have the next meeting in Scotland.
Action 1: To contact Scottish Executive to examine Scottish representatives at these meetings – Iain Peter Action 2: CCPR to contact Scottish Sports Association to discuss our working relationship and to encourage Scottish representation at AAIAC meetings – Charlotte Edward and Andrew Hanson 5.2 The membership discussed the issue of Skillsactive’s commitment to the AAIAC, the relationship between Skillsactive and the Outdoor recreation sector and the issue of NGB and non-NGB qualifications. Action 3: Stephen Studd to attend the next meeting to discuss these issues. 5.3 MH informed the meeting about an email from DfES, which stated that DfES supported the group, accepted observer status and would take soundings from this group as well as others on areas of concern. 5.4 As requested at the last meeting MH consulted HSE on the status of an Industry Liaison Committee. The members were informed that the HSE had no specific procedures for an ILC. The HSE is however supportive of the group and has accepted observer status. 5.5 The status of the Committee was discussed. It was agreed that the Committee would retain the title of Adventure Activities Industry Advisory Committee, but recognised it was independent and not a formal HSE advisory group. Action4: Write letter to HSE and DfES to advise them on the latest development – Mike Penny 6. Membership of Committee
6.1 The membership of the Committee was discussed and it was agreed that the Committee would remain with the current membership for 1 year from the date of this meeting. 6.2 A working group will be set up to examine the membership of the Committee. The working group would undertake two tasks; firstly, to examine the current gaps in the membership and to find suitable representatives to fill those gaps; secondly, to contact all the representative organisations to check if the current representative is still the most suitable person. 6.3 This working group will also establish criteria for representatives. 6.4 It was agreed that Andrew Hanson and Charlotte Edward of the CCPR would provide the secretariat to the AAIAC but would not be members. 6.5 The role of Skillsactive would be clarified by Stephen Studd at the next meeting Action 5: Membership working group members need to be established at the next meeting
7. Observers
7.1 It was agreed that DfES, HSE, Scottish Executive, Welsh Assembly and AALA would be given observer status. 8. Chairmanship of Committee
8.1 It was agreed that the Committee would decline the kind offer of Chairmanship from Bill Gillan from the HSE. It was agreed that for up to 1 year from the date of this meeting the role of Chairman would rotate around the members. IP agreed to Chair the next meeting. SS offered to chair a future meeting. 9. Work at Heights Directive
9.1 Robert Vaughan gave a presentation on the Working at Heights Directive. See presentation slides attached. Timescale:
Formal Consultation December 2003 to April 2004
Implementation 19 July 2004 The formal consultation document will be available from:
www.hse.gov.uk/consult/live.htm The email address is:
Work.at.heights.consultation@hse.gsi.gov.uk 9.2 Following the presentation there was a debate about the Working at Heights Directive. 9.3 It was noted that activities that are affected by this Directive will be categorised through definition into either part 1 or part 2-5 of schedule 5 - Personal Fall Protection System. HSE informed the meeting that HSE lawyers were currently working on these definitions and once these had been finalised the AAIAC would be informed. 9.4 John Cousins requested HSE to provide a definition of a rope. 9.5 BG informed the AAIAC that the WAH consultation was not finalised and his team are still working on the consultation document. BG noted that the AAIAC comments were very helpful and BG reassured the members that he and his team would take their comments on board. 9.6 AAIAC members agreed that WAH guidance should not undermine current good practice that already exists within the industry. 9.7 BG noted that HSE could not exempt any industry from the WAH regulations. Members commented that other European countries thought that adventure activities were exempt. BG informed the members that other European countries might not enforce the directive but HSE cannot guarantee that the regulations will not be enforced. Action 6: IP agreed to host a repeat demonstration day, Bill Gillan and his team agreed that they would attend and a HSE lawyer would be invited. 10. Update on Licensing Review
10.1 An email from Martin Elliott was tabled, outlining that the Licensing review will be published by the end of September. It appeared likely that licensing is to continue in its current form with improvements and that there could be the opportunity to develop a supplementary non-mandatory scheme.
10.2 The Committee was informed about the Scottish Adventure Activities Forum (SAAF). It was agreed that Alan Blackshaw (the Chairman of SAAF) could be asked if SAAF wished to host the next meeting in Edinburgh and offer an open invite to Scottish sport representatives. Action 7: IP to invite SAAF to host the next meeting. 11. Review plan of work
11.1 Members discussed the AAIAC plan of work.
11.2 It was agreed that:
Objective 1 – was to continue and Simon Waring was to Chair this group
Objective 2 – was to continue and Stephen Saddler was to Chair this group
Objective 3 and 4 – were to be amalgamated and to continue as one area of work, Martin Hudson was to Chair this group. It was agreed that the progress of this work will depend on the publication of the Licensing Review.
11.3 It was noted that the Work Programme contained a number of actions, but currently there is no funding available for the delivery of these actions. Funding for the work programme will be discussed at the next meeting. In the meantime Chairs will seek to take work forward.
11.4 The secretariat would update the work programme as advised by the AAIAC. 12. Date of next meeting
12 November 2003 – Edinburgh
Specific location and time to be confirmed
12.1 Suggested agenda items:
• Working at Heights
• Licensing review
• Bench marking groups
• CCPR / Scottish Sports Association relationship
• Skillsactive UK / Stephen Studd update
• Work programme |
1. Attendees
AAIAC Members:
Martin Hudson (MH) – In the Chair
Jon Cox (JC)
Iain Peter (IP)
Stephen Saddler (SS)
Rob Henderson (RH)
Brian Davies (BD)
Simon Waring (SW)
Ron Rutland (RR)
Mike Penny (MP)
AAIAC Observers
Jon Beynon (JB)
Marcus Bailie (MB) (from 2pm)
Bill Gillan (BG) – HSE (from 2pm)
Robert Vaughan (RV) – HSE (from 2pm)
Guests (from 2pm) John Cousins
SkillsActive: Ben Gittus
CCPR:
Andrew Hanson (AH) (Education & Training Officer)
Charlotte Edward (CE) (Policy Officer Water Recreation and Outdoor Pursuits)
2. Apologies for Absence
Stephen Studd, Drew Michie, Ian Lamb, Sandra Skinner, John Bevan, Fred Nelson, Chris Coleman and Roger Smith
3. Chairman’s remarks
3.1 Martin Hudson welcomed everyone to the meeting and in particular Jon Beynon from the National Assembly for Wales.
4. Notes of previous meeting – 23 June 2003
4.1 The amended version of the notes from the previous meeting on the 23 June 2003 were circulated and the committee agreed that these were an accurate record of the meeting’s content and intent.
5. Remit / status of Committee
5.1 The Committee discussed the importance of the UK remit. The attendance and support of Jon Beynon as the representative for The National Assembly for Wales, was welcomed by the Committee. JB explained that the new Minister for Sport had an interest in adventure activities and supported the group on the understanding that it had a UK remit and Scotland were involved. JB’s role would be to report back to the Minister from these meetings. The membership discussed the importance of the Scottish Executive’s involvement at these meetings. It was agreed that one way to encourage this was to have the next meeting in Scotland.
Action 1: To contact Scottish Executive to examine Scottish representatives at these meetings – Iain Peter
Action 2: CCPR to contact Scottish Sports Association to discuss our working relationship and to encourage Scottish representation at AAIAC meetings – Charlotte Edward and Andrew Hanson
5.2 The membership discussed the issue of Skillsactive’s commitment to the AAIAC, the relationship between Skillsactive and the Outdoor recreation sector and the issue of NGB and non-NGB qualifications.
Action 3: Stephen Studd to attend the next meeting to discuss these issues.
5.3 MH informed the meeting about an email from DfES, which stated that DfES supported the group, accepted observer status and would take soundings from this group as well as others on areas of concern.
5.4 As requested at the last meeting MH consulted HSE on the status of an Industry Liaison Committee. The members were informed that the HSE had no specific procedures for an ILC. The HSE is however supportive of the group and has accepted observer status.
5.5 The status of the Committee was discussed. It was agreed that the Committee would retain the title of Adventure Activities Industry Advisory Committee, but recognised it was independent and not a formal HSE advisory group.
Action4: Write letter to HSE and DfES to advise them on the latest development – Mike Penny
6. Membership of Committee
6.1 The membership of the Committee was discussed and it was agreed that the Committee would remain with the current membership for 1 year from the date of this meeting.
6.2 A working group will be set up to examine the membership of the Committee. The working group would undertake two tasks; firstly, to examine the current gaps in the membership and to find suitable representatives to fill those gaps; secondly, to contact all the representative organisations to check if the current representative is still the most suitable person.
6.3 This working group will also establish criteria for representatives.
6.4 It was agreed that Andrew Hanson and Charlotte Edward of the CCPR would provide the secretariat to the AAIAC but would not be members.
6.5 The role of Skillsactive would be clarified by Stephen Studd at the next meeting
Action 5: Membership working group members need to be established at the next meeting
7. Observers
7.1 It was agreed that DfES, HSE, Scottish Executive, Welsh Assembly and AALA would be given observer status.
8. Chairmanship of Committee
8.1 It was agreed that the Committee would decline the kind offer of Chairmanship from Bill Gillan from the HSE. It was agreed that for up to 1 year from the date of this meeting the role of Chairman would rotate around the members. IP agreed to Chair the next meeting. SS offered to chair a future meeting.
9. Work at Heights Directive
9.1 Robert Vaughan gave a presentation on the Working at Heights Directive. See presentation slides attached.
Timescale:
Formal Consultation December 2003 to April 2004
Implementation 19 July 2004
The formal consultation document will be available from:
www.hse.gov.uk/consult/live.htm
The email address is:
Work.at.heights.consultation@hse.gsi.gov.uk
9.2 Following the presentation there was a debate about the Working at Heights Directive.
9.3 It was noted that activities that are affected by this Directive will be categorised through definition into either part 1 or part 2-5 of schedule 5 - Personal Fall Protection System. HSE informed the meeting that HSE lawyers were currently working on these definitions and once these had been finalised the AAIAC would be informed.
9.4 John Cousins requested HSE to provide a definition of a rope.
9.5 BG informed the AAIAC that the WAH consultation was not finalised and his team are still working on the consultation document. BG noted that the AAIAC comments were very helpful and BG reassured the members that he and his team would take their comments on board.
9.6 AAIAC members agreed that WAH guidance should not undermine current good practice that already exists within the industry.
9.7 BG noted that HSE could not exempt any industry from the WAH regulations. Members commented that other European countries thought that adventure activities were exempt. BG informed the members that other European countries might not enforce the directive but HSE cannot guarantee that the regulations will not be enforced.
Action 6: IP agreed to host a repeat demonstration day, Bill Gillan and his team agreed that they would attend and a HSE lawyer would be invited.
10. Update on Licensing Review
10.1 An email from Martin Elliott was tabled, outlining that the Licensing review will be published by the end of September. It appeared likely that licensing is to continue in its current form with improvements and that there could be the opportunity to develop a supplementary non-mandatory scheme.
10.2 The Committee was informed about the Scottish Adventure Activities Forum (SAAF). It was agreed that Alan Blackshaw (the Chairman of SAAF) could be asked if SAAF wished to host the next meeting in Edinburgh and offer an open invite to Scottish sport representatives.
Action 7: IP to invite SAAF to host the next meeting.
11. Review plan of work
11.1 Members discussed the AAIAC plan of work.
11.2 It was agreed that:
Objective 1 – was to continue and Simon Waring was to Chair this group
Objective 2 – was to continue and Stephen Saddler was to Chair this group
Objective 3 and 4 – were to be amalgamated and to continue as one area of work, Martin Hudson was to Chair this group. It was agreed that the progress of this work will depend on the publication of the Licensing Review.
11.3 It was noted that the Work Programme contained a number of actions, but currently there is no funding available for the delivery of these actions. Funding for the work programme will be discussed at the next meeting. In the meantime Chairs will seek to take work forward.
11.4 The secretariat would update the work programme as advised by the AAIAC.
12. Date of next meeting
12 November 2003 – Edinburgh
Specific location and time to be confirmed
12.1 Suggested agenda items:
• Working at Heights
• Licensing review
• Bench marking groups
• CCPR / Scottish Sports Association relationship
• Skillsactive UK / Stephen Studd update
• Work programme
