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1. Attendees
AAIAC Members: Iain Peter (IP) – in the Chair
Jon Cox (JoC)
Ian Lamb (IL)
Mike Penny (MP)
Simon Waring (SW)
Martin Hudson (MH)
John Bevan (JB)
Fred Nelson (FN)
AAIAC Observers Marcus Bailie (MB) – AALA
Bob Telford (BT) – AALA
Sam Crymble (SC) – AALA
Karen Mitchell (KM) – Scottish Executive
Howard Braithwaite (HB) – Welsh Assembly
Gavin Howat (GH) – HSE
Guests John Cousins (JC)
Alan Blackshaw (AB) – SAAF Chairman
Dorothy Breckenridge (DB)
Nick Halls (NH)
James Allen (JA)
Allen Fyffe (AF)
Andy Beverage (AB)
Tim Walker (TW)
SkillsActive: Stephen Studd (SS)
CCPR: Charlotte Edward (CE)
2. Apologies for Absence
Ron Rutland, Gareth Broughton, Drew Michie, Chris Coleman, Roger Smith, Steve Saddler, Sandra Skinner, Bill Gillan, Chris Broome, Mary Matthews, John Ward, Mike Dunthorne, Chalmers Smith, Jon Beynon, Martin Elliot, Matthew Tagney, Neil Borthwick, Duncan Brown, Janet Shepherd, Andrew Hanson, Rob Henderson and Brian Davies.
3. Chairman’s remarks and introductions
Iain Peter (IP) welcomed everyone to the meeting and in particular the guests from the Scottish Adventure Activities Forum (SAAF) and the other organisations. IP thanked the Adventure Centre, Ratho for providing an inspiring venue.
4. Minutes of the previous meeting
The notes from the previous meeting on the 17 September 2003 were checked by the group. The members were informed of Jon Beynon’s email, which suggested changes for item 5.1 of the previous minutes. The members agreed the changes and the minutes now read ‘JB explained that the new Minister for Sport had an interest in adventure activities and supported the group on the understanding that it had a UK remit and we would be interested to learn of Scotland’s views’.
5. Matters arising
5.1 Membership update on current position
IP informed the Committee that the AAIAC membership was going to be reviewed within the year. IP suggested that one of the aims of the meeting was to explore the relationship between AAIAC and SAAF. IP invited Alan Blackshaw the Chairman of SAAF to inform the members about SAAF.
Alan Blackshaw (AB) thanked IP and all the AAIAC members for inviting him and SAAF members to attend. AB explained that SAAF was a unique organisation, which benefits from close links with SportScotland. AB highlighted that SAAF had a very flexible membership, with a wide range of users and providers. At present the membership includes; SAPOE, Activity Scotland, Outdoor Learning Scotland, Scottish Sports Association, Youthlink Scotland, VisitScotland, sportscotland, CoSLA, HSE, Scottish Executive, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and AALA.
AB highlighted that SAAF’s main function was a two way link between the Scottish Executive, HSE and member organisations. AB suggested that the forum is used as a mechanism to pass information to the Scottish Executive and HSE, whilst providing the opportunity for the sector to ask questions and receive information.
AB informed members that SAAF had responded to the recent review on Licensing, however AB explained that SAAF’s remit included general Health and Safety issues that affect the sector as well as Licensing.
AB suggested that one way in which SAAF and AAIAC could work together would be to have SAAF members attending AAIAC meetings and vice versa. The Committee discussed the strength of Home Nations support for the AAIAC and the importance of a UK remit. Members welcomed Scotland’s attendance at the meeting.
Karen Mitchell (KM) highlighted that the Scottish Executive would like to accept observer status on the AAIAC.
IP thanked the Scottish Executive for their commitment to the Committee and highlighted that having both the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Executive was very positive.
Marcus Bailie (MB) informed the Committee that AALA had no views about the AAIAC’s remit and explained that AALA are involved with both SAAF and AAIAC. MB highlighted that having the Scottish Executive, the Welsh Assembly and DfES as observers to AAIAC could be very advantageous for the sector.
The Committee discussed the usefulness of having parallel organisations to SAAF in England and Wales. It was noted that English Outdoor Council and Antur Cymru could fulfil this role.
5.2 Correspondence
Mike Penny (MP) informed the Committee that the letter to HSE and DfES advising them on the latest developments of the AAIAC had not yet been sent. MP explained that the Local Government Association had withdrawn from sending the letter, and that he would pursue this matter further. Members agreed that sending the letter should be postponed until it was approved by the LGA, however members agreed that if this process took too long then the letter would be sent from the AAIAC.
Nick Halls suggested that the letter should be approved by COSLA in addition to LGA.
Action 1: Letter to HSE and DfES to advise them on the latest developments of the AAIAC – Mike Penny or AAIAC (depending on LGA approval)
The Committee then debated the relationship between AAIAC and AALA.
6. Remit of Committee
6.1 Committee’s GB/UK remit
Members agreed the AAIAC would aim to have a UK remit, however if Northern Ireland did not wish to be involved then the AAIAC would adopt a GB remit.
Steven Studd (SS) informed the Committee that Skillsactive was currently recruiting in Northern Ireland and that this may highlight a suitable person to attend the AAIAC meeting.
It was also noted that IP and CCPR would talk to Governing Bodies in Northern Ireland the Northern Ireland Sports Forum and the Northern Ireland Sports Council.
Action 2: IP and CCPR to contact Governing Bodies in Northern Ireland Sports Bodies, the Northern Ireland Sports Forum and the Northern Ireland Sports Council to inform them about the AAIAC and encourage Northern Ireland to accept observer status.
6.2 CCPR’s relationship to the Scottish Sports Association
Charlotte Edward (CE) informed the Committee of the relationship between SSA and CCPR. CE highlighted that a letter from the Chairman of the SSA to AAIAC clarified CCPR’s UK remit, which would be circulated to all members.
Action 3: CE to circulate letter to all AAIAC members
6.3 Role and remit of Skillsactive
SS tabled a paper which explained Skillsactive’s role and organisational framework. SS informed members that Skillsactive are able to provide interim support for the group. SS suggested that as the group develops a formal arrangement to support the group could be put in place; possibly by spring next year and the AAIAC could have an opportunity to present a work programme to the Skillsactive Board.
7. Work Programme
7.1 Membership
IP informed the Committee that at the previous AAIAC meeting (17 September 2003), it had been agreed that a working group would be set up to examine the membership of the Committee.
It was agreed that John Bevan (JB) would be Chair and Ian Lamb, Mike Penny and Martin Hudson volunteered to be part of the membership working group.
JB suggested that the membership working group would have two stages; firstly, to produce an issues paper, which would be circulated and discussed at the next meeting and secondly, to conduct the work on the issues raised.
7.2 AAIAC wider role in Health and Safety
Simon Waring (SW) the Chair of this sub-group tabled a paper which outlined a proposed plan of work for the Health and Safety sub-group. SW highlighted the aim, which is to promote sound practice in preventing significant accidents and long term injury to those who take responsibility of others in adventure activities.
SW noted that the perceived outcome would be a guidance document that increases awareness and provides sound advice.
Iain Peter and John Cousins volunteered to assist Simon Waring with the Health and Safety sub-group.
7.3 Benchmarking
IP informed the Committee that the Benchmarking sub-group was Chaired by Stephen Saddler and unfortunately an update was not available as Stephen had been unable to attend.
It was agreed that IP would contact Stephen Saddler to clarify the position of this sub-group, especially with regards to the Expedition Guidance work.
It was hoped that Stephen Saddler would be able to attend the next meeting to update the group.
Action 4: IP to contact Stephen Saddler with regards to the Benchmarking sub-group
7.4 Licensing
Martin Hudson (MH) the Chair of the licensing sub-group informed the Committee that at present there was no news on the Licensing Review. MH noted that the sub-group’s role would be to examine the alternative options to the present licensing scheme. MH had no volunteers to assist him with this work, however MH suggested he would find the original list of members of this sub-group and ask them to re-volunteer.
7.5 Funding of the work programme
SS noted that potential financial resources for the sub-groups could be available from Skillsactive.
7.6 Other areas of work
John Cousins (JC) explained to the Committee that the National Caving Association are unable to obtain insurance. There was a brief discussion about the problems concerning NGBs and Insurance.
Charlotte Edward (CE) informed the Committee about the work CCPR was conducting in this area. CE highlighted that the CCPR had set up a risk working group and that the CCPR had obtained a seat on the Home Office Insurance Cover Working Group, which focuses on the Voluntary and Community sector. CE will keep the Committee informed of any developments.
Action 5: CE to email the Home Office Insurance Cover Working Group report to members
8. Current Issues
8.1 Working at Heights
John Cousins (JC) updated the members. JC noted that a meeting had been called by the HSE (due to take place on the 18 November, London) to consider the issues being faced by the sector from the draft Regulations and to examine possible solutions. JC noted that the members from the AAIAC that have been invited were; Brian Davies, Sandra Skinner, Stephen Saddler, Simon Waring, Marcus Bailie and John Cousins.
Gavin Howat (GH) informed the Committee that the HSE had approved the consultation document and it will be available from 4 December 2003. GH reported that the length of the consultation period has been extended by one month and will now run until the beginning of April 2004.
IP expressed disappointment that Bill Gillan and his team had not taken up the offer of a repeat demonstration day.
8.2 Review of Licensing
Charlotte Edward informed the Committee that a short statement from DfES concerning the licensing review was due to be tabled, unfortunately the paper had not arrived in time for the meeting and it was agreed that the paper would be circulated to members in the near future.
GH noted that it had not yet been decided whether the Guidance will be re-written following the review. Members highlighted that DfES did not have an advisory body to consult with if a new guidance document was produced. GH suggested that the AAIAC could be used as a consultative body.
Action 6: CE to circulate DfES statement concerning the Licensing Review
9. Any other business
Members discussed the appeals process for licensing and whether the AAIAC could have a role to play.
It was agreed that the appeals process works adequately at present and if AALA believes there is a role for the AAIAC, then AALA should write to the Chair of AAIAC to examine ways in which the AAIAC can assist.
IP informed the Committee that the notes from the AAIAC meetings will be available on the CCPR website.
10. Date and venue of next meeting
Simon Waring agreed to Chair the next meeting.
Next meeting 3 March 2004 at Plas y Brenin
AAIAC Minutes from 12 November 2003
1. Attendees
AAIAC Members: Iain Peter (IP) – in the Chair
Jon Cox (JoC)
Ian Lamb (IL)
Mike Penny (MP)
Simon Waring (SW)
Martin Hudson (MH)
John Bevan (JB)
Fred Nelson (FN)
AAIAC Observers Marcus Bailie (MB) – AALA
Bob Telford (BT) – AALA
Sam Crymble (SC) – AALA
Karen Mitchell (KM) – Scottish Executive
Howard Braithwaite (HB) – Welsh Assembly
Gavin Howat (GH) – HSE Guests John Cousins (JC)
Alan Blackshaw (AB) – SAAF Chairman
Dorothy Breckenridge (DB)
Nick Halls (NH)
James Allen (JA)
Allen Fyffe (AF)
Andy Beverage (AB)
Tim Walker (TW)
SkillsActive: Stephen Studd (SS)
CCPR: Charlotte Edward (CE) 2. Apologies for Absence
Ron Rutland, Gareth Broughton, Drew Michie, Chris Coleman, Roger Smith, Steve Saddler, Sandra Skinner, Bill Gillan, Chris Broome, Mary Matthews, John Ward, Mike Dunthorne, Chalmers Smith, Jon Beynon, Martin Elliot, Matthew Tagney, Neil Borthwick, Duncan Brown, Janet Shepherd, Andrew Hanson, Rob Henderson and Brian Davies. 3. Chairman’s remarks and introductions
Iain Peter (IP) welcomed everyone to the meeting and in particular the guests from the Scottish Adventure Activities Forum (SAAF) and the other organisations. IP thanked the Adventure Centre, Ratho for providing an inspiring venue. 4. Minutes of the previous meeting
The notes from the previous meeting on the 17 September 2003 were checked by the group. The members were informed of Jon Beynon’s email, which suggested changes for item 5.1 of the previous minutes. The members agreed the changes and the minutes now read ‘JB explained that the new Minister for Sport had an interest in adventure activities and supported the group on the understanding that it had a UK remit and we would be interested to learn of Scotland’s views’. 5. Matters arising
5.1 Membership update on current position
IP informed the Committee that the AAIAC membership was going to be reviewed within the year. IP suggested that one of the aims of the meeting was to explore the relationship between AAIAC and SAAF. IP invited Alan Blackshaw the Chairman of SAAF to inform the members about SAAF. Alan Blackshaw (AB) thanked IP and all the AAIAC members for inviting him and SAAF members to attend. AB explained that SAAF was a unique organisation, which benefits from close links with SportScotland. AB highlighted that SAAF had a very flexible membership, with a wide range of users and providers. At present the membership includes; SAPOE, Activity Scotland, Outdoor Learning Scotland, Scottish Sports Association, Youthlink Scotland, VisitScotland, sportscotland, CoSLA, HSE, Scottish Executive, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and AALA. AB highlighted that SAAF’s main function was a two way link between the Scottish Executive, HSE and member organisations. AB suggested that the forum is used as a mechanism to pass information to the Scottish Executive and HSE, whilst providing the opportunity for the sector to ask questions and receive information. AB informed members that SAAF had responded to the recent review on Licensing, however AB explained that SAAF’s remit included general Health and Safety issues that affect the sector as well as Licensing. AB suggested that one way in which SAAF and AAIAC could work together would be to have SAAF members attending AAIAC meetings and vice versa. The Committee discussed the strength of Home Nations support for the AAIAC and the importance of a UK remit. Members welcomed Scotland’s attendance at the meeting. Karen Mitchell (KM) highlighted that the Scottish Executive would like to accept observer status on the AAIAC. IP thanked the Scottish Executive for their commitment to the Committee and highlighted that having both the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Executive was very positive. Marcus Bailie (MB) informed the Committee that AALA had no views about the AAIAC’s remit and explained that AALA are involved with both SAAF and AAIAC. MB highlighted that having the Scottish Executive, the Welsh Assembly and DfES as observers to AAIAC could be very advantageous for the sector. The Committee discussed the usefulness of having parallel organisations to SAAF in England and Wales. It was noted that English Outdoor Council and Antur Cymru could fulfil this role. 5.2 Correspondence
Mike Penny (MP) informed the Committee that the letter to HSE and DfES advising them on the latest developments of the AAIAC had not yet been sent. MP explained that the Local Government Association had withdrawn from sending the letter, and that he would pursue this matter further. Members agreed that sending the letter should be postponed until it was approved by the LGA, however members agreed that if this process took too long then the letter would be sent from the AAIAC. Nick Halls suggested that the letter should be approved by COSLA in addition to LGA. Action 1: Letter to HSE and DfES to advise them on the latest developments of the AAIAC – Mike Penny or AAIAC (depending on LGA approval) The Committee then debated the relationship between AAIAC and AALA. 6. Remit of Committee
6.1 Committee’s GB/UK remit
Members agreed the AAIAC would aim to have a UK remit, however if Northern Ireland did not wish to be involved then the AAIAC would adopt a GB remit. Steven Studd (SS) informed the Committee that Skillsactive was currently recruiting in Northern Ireland and that this may highlight a suitable person to attend the AAIAC meeting. It was also noted that IP and CCPR would talk to Governing Bodies in Northern Ireland the Northern Ireland Sports Forum and the Northern Ireland Sports Council. Action 2: IP and CCPR to contact Governing Bodies in Northern Ireland Sports Bodies, the Northern Ireland Sports Forum and the Northern Ireland Sports Council to inform them about the AAIAC and encourage Northern Ireland to accept observer status. 6.2 CCPR’s relationship to the Scottish Sports Association
Charlotte Edward (CE) informed the Committee of the relationship between SSA and CCPR. CE highlighted that a letter from the Chairman of the SSA to AAIAC clarified CCPR’s UK remit, which would be circulated to all members. Action 3: CE to circulate letter to all AAIAC members 6.3 Role and remit of Skillsactive
SS tabled a paper which explained Skillsactive’s role and organisational framework. SS informed members that Skillsactive are able to provide interim support for the group. SS suggested that as the group develops a formal arrangement to support the group could be put in place; possibly by spring next year and the AAIAC could have an opportunity to present a work programme to the Skillsactive Board. 7. Work Programme
7.1 Membership
IP informed the Committee that at the previous AAIAC meeting (17 September 2003), it had been agreed that a working group would be set up to examine the membership of the Committee. It was agreed that John Bevan (JB) would be Chair and Ian Lamb, Mike Penny and Martin Hudson volunteered to be part of the membership working group.
JB suggested that the membership working group would have two stages; firstly, to produce an issues paper, which would be circulated and discussed at the next meeting and secondly, to conduct the work on the issues raised. 7.2 AAIAC wider role in Health and Safety
Simon Waring (SW) the Chair of this sub-group tabled a paper which outlined a proposed plan of work for the Health and Safety sub-group. SW highlighted the aim, which is to promote sound practice in preventing significant accidents and long term injury to those who take responsibility of others in adventure activities. SW noted that the perceived outcome would be a guidance document that increases awareness and provides sound advice. Iain Peter and John Cousins volunteered to assist Simon Waring with the Health and Safety sub-group. 7.3 Benchmarking
IP informed the Committee that the Benchmarking sub-group was Chaired by Stephen Saddler and unfortunately an update was not available as Stephen had been unable to attend. It was agreed that IP would contact Stephen Saddler to clarify the position of this sub-group, especially with regards to the Expedition Guidance work. It was hoped that Stephen Saddler would be able to attend the next meeting to update the group. Action 4: IP to contact Stephen Saddler with regards to the Benchmarking sub-group 7.4 Licensing
Martin Hudson (MH) the Chair of the licensing sub-group informed the Committee that at present there was no news on the Licensing Review. MH noted that the sub-group’s role would be to examine the alternative options to the present licensing scheme. MH had no volunteers to assist him with this work, however MH suggested he would find the original list of members of this sub-group and ask them to re-volunteer. 7.5 Funding of the work programme
SS noted that potential financial resources for the sub-groups could be available from Skillsactive. 7.6 Other areas of work
John Cousins (JC) explained to the Committee that the National Caving Association are unable to obtain insurance. There was a brief discussion about the problems concerning NGBs and Insurance. Charlotte Edward (CE) informed the Committee about the work CCPR was conducting in this area. CE highlighted that the CCPR had set up a risk working group and that the CCPR had obtained a seat on the Home Office Insurance Cover Working Group, which focuses on the Voluntary and Community sector. CE will keep the Committee informed of any developments. Action 5: CE to email the Home Office Insurance Cover Working Group report to members 8. Current Issues
8.1 Working at Heights
John Cousins (JC) updated the members. JC noted that a meeting had been called by the HSE (due to take place on the 18 November, London) to consider the issues being faced by the sector from the draft Regulations and to examine possible solutions. JC noted that the members from the AAIAC that have been invited were; Brian Davies, Sandra Skinner, Stephen Saddler, Simon Waring, Marcus Bailie and John Cousins. Gavin Howat (GH) informed the Committee that the HSE had approved the consultation document and it will be available from 4 December 2003. GH reported that the length of the consultation period has been extended by one month and will now run until the beginning of April 2004. IP expressed disappointment that Bill Gillan and his team had not taken up the offer of a repeat demonstration day. 8.2 Review of Licensing
Charlotte Edward informed the Committee that a short statement from DfES concerning the licensing review was due to be tabled, unfortunately the paper had not arrived in time for the meeting and it was agreed that the paper would be circulated to members in the near future. GH noted that it had not yet been decided whether the Guidance will be re-written following the review. Members highlighted that DfES did not have an advisory body to consult with if a new guidance document was produced. GH suggested that the AAIAC could be used as a consultative body. Action 6: CE to circulate DfES statement concerning the Licensing Review 9. Any other business
Members discussed the appeals process for licensing and whether the AAIAC could have a role to play. It was agreed that the appeals process works adequately at present and if AALA believes there is a role for the AAIAC, then AALA should write to the Chair of AAIAC to examine ways in which the AAIAC can assist. IP informed the Committee that the notes from the AAIAC meetings will be available on the CCPR website. 10. Date and venue of next meeting Simon Waring agreed to Chair the next meeting. Next meeting 3 March 2004 at Plas y Brenin
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